“Prophets and Apostles” — Section 10
Was Joseph Smith a ‘prophet’, and are there ‘apostles’ on earth today?
Representative of a Christian church:
Gentlemen, I believe that we are troubling ourselves with concepts common only to each of our individual beliefs. Our purpose today is to establish or refute the claim of ‘modern-day apostles and prophets’, as taught by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. These missionaries, in order to establish such a claim, just do so by use of the scriptures. To this point, they have established that their revelation is harmonious with our view of revelation, but as we all know, revelation must be needful, progressive, and instructive. Even if these missionaries can support this stand on revelation, they must also establish that their apostles and prophets fulfill and satisfy the qualifications for such in the word of God.
The claim of Joseph Smith being a prophet is not a unique concept, but an old one. Other religious denominations have claimed allegiance to ‘prophets of God’, and that these prophets have founded their beliefs and doctrine. This trend has been in place for over 200 years. Here are some examples: 1) The Christian Science movement was founded by Mary Baker Eddy, and in her book entitled “Science and Health”, she states that she was ‘inspired of God’. 2) The Pentecostal Church manual states that in 1914 they had the ‘revelation of the name of the Lord Jesus’. 3) The Jehovah’s Witnesses purport that Pastor Russel was a prophet of God in the book “Study the Scriptures”, volume 7, page 377. 4) Seventh-day Adventist literature purports that Ellen G. White was a prophetess of God and divinely inspired. Representatives of these four religions would sincerely testify, with all their hearts, that their ‘way’ is the true ‘way’. All claim to be inspired, all claim to be founded on principles put forth by prophets or prophetesses of God. I would challenge these young LDS missionaries to prove, using the Bible, that Joseph Smith was an inspired prophet, while these others were not. It would seem to me that every Bible verse you missionaries would use to support your beliefs about Joseph Smith would also apply to these other religious leaders that we have named.
Missionaries of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints:
We are grateful for the chance to defend our beliefs and principles today. We bear witness to you men and women that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, that he was inspired, and that he saw the Father and the Son in the year 1820, and that through this great Prophet the Church of Jesus Christ has been established once again in these latter days.
Representative of a Christian church:
We do not doubt your sincere belief that Joseph Smith was a prophet. We know you hold this belief near to your heat, but so do all others that we have mentioned. They also ‘know’ that their beliefs are ‘true’. Using the Bible, can you prove to me that Joseph Smith saw God and was a prophet?
Missionaries of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints:
Christ once stated, as recorded in Matthew 12:36-27, that “…by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by they words thou shalt be condemned.” Let us proceed with that understanding. The scriptures very clearly define the qualifications of a Prophet of God. Moses, while in a vision, was commanded by the Lord to “hear now my words. If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.” (Numbers 12:6) In other words, a prophet must receive visions from God, and have inspired dreams. We are not aware of any other religious leaders who make this claim. Let’s read Joseph Smith’s own words: “Just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me, I saw two personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name, and said, pointing to the other, ‘This is my beloved Son, hear him’ “. Joseph Smith’s calling as a prophet was more than just a feeling or an inclination — it was an event. In Deuteronomy 18:21-22 Moses described another way that we can recognize a prophet. He states that if a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord and the thing follows not, he is a false prophet, but that if he speaks in the name of the Lord, and it follows, he is a prophet of God. This was a divine qualification. I now refer to the revelation and prophecy of war, given through Joseph Smith on December 25, 1832, and found in Section 87 of the Doctrine and Covenants. In verse 1, the prophet prophesied in the name of the Lord and stated, “Beginning at South Carolina, a war would start that would eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls”. Twenty-nine years before the beginning of its fulfillment, he stated that it would begin in South Carolina, and many would be killed. This, of course, was the American Civil War, and the first shot was fired at Fort Sumter, South Carolina. Verse 2 of that section looked ahead toward the First World War and stated that war would eventually be poured out on all nations “beginning at this place.” In verse 3 it states that the North would be divided against the South, and the prophet foresaw and prophesied that the South would call upon the nations of “Great Britain” and others for assistance. This prophecy has parts that have not yet been fulfilled, but will be at future dates, right up to the end of time. As you will notice, the prophecy was made in the name of the Lord and it came to pass. This is the sign of a prophet.
Representative of a Christian church:
The apostle Paul taught that in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. Are there other prophecies that Joseph Smith made and that were fulfilled? Also, since the prophecy you just mentioned dealt with war, it could have been under the influence of the devil, since war is of the devil.
Missionaries of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints:
Joseph Smith spoke in the name of the Lord. When a man speaks in the Lord’s name and the prophecy is fulfilled, he would by definition be a prophet. War is indeed of the devil, but that doesn’t mean that a prophecy about war is also of the devil. Christ Himself prophesied of “wars and rumors of wars” in Matthew 24, and John the Revelator saw great destruction as recorded in the Book of Revelation. I think we would all agree that those prophecies were not made under the influence of the devil. I hope we can all agree that this prophecy of Joseph Smith found partial fulfillment in the years that followed the prophecy. Regarding a ‘second witness’, I would point out an incredible prophecy that the Prophet Joseph Smith made in 1842. This prophecy can be found in the Documentary History of the Church, Volume 5, page 85. At the time that Joseph Smith made this prophecy, the Saints were living in Nauvoo, Illinois, a beautiful town which they had settled and built up from swamp land. It was a community of Latter-day Saints, and they had a militia second only in power to the Army of the United States. Its soldiers were well-trained in the methods of war and self-defense. At the time of their greatest prosperity, Joseph Smith, speaking in the name of the Lord, prophesied “…that the Saints would continue to suffer much affliction and would be driven to the Rocky Mountains.” He also said that many would apostatize and others would be put to death by their persecutors, or would lose their lives due to exposure or disease. Then to fulfill this great and dynamic prophecy he stated “…and some of you will likely go and assist in making settlements and build cities and see the Saints become a mighty people in the midst of the Rocky Mountains”. At the time this prophecy was made, that territory was outside the confines of the United States and the West was savage country. At the same time the prophecy was made, the 27th Congress was in its third session, and Senator George I. McDuffie of South Carolina made a statement concerning the Rocky Mountains Territory when he stated: “Who are to go there [to the West], along the line of military posts, and take possession of the only part of the territory fit to occupy? That part is along the seacoast and is less than one hundred miles in width. Of what use will the rest of the West be for agricultural purposes? I would not for that purpose give a pinch of snuff for the whole territory. I wish to God we did not own it.” History bears us witness of what happened in the West. The prophecy of Joseph Smith was fulfilled to the letter. The Saints were driven from Nauvoo and their temple was destroyed and desecrated, and many Saints were killed. They made the longest exodus ever recorded on this continent, and completed their arduous journey into the valleys of the Rocky Mountains, with no sign of life in the entire valley except a single tree. Gentlemen, I know that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God.
Judge:
The prophecies you have shared are very impressive. What other evidence can you produce to support your claims of Joseph Smith?
Missionaries of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints:
Amos 3:7 tells us that the Lord will do nothing without revealing it first to His servants the prophets. We boldly yet humbly proclaim that modern-day prophets and apostles are found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and that the Lord is indeed revealing His doings, actions, and desires to these inspired prophets. Also, Daniel interpreted the dream of Nebuchadnezzar and declared that the God of Heaven would set up a kingdom which should never be destroyed, and that the kingdom would not be left to another people. He also stated that this kingdom would break into pieces and consume all other kingdoms. This kingdom could not be established without a prophet, since the Lord does not work, as stated by Amos, unless it it through His servants, the prophets.
Representative of a Christian church:
Are you suggesting that the kingdom mentioned by Daniel is the ‘Mormon’ Church? Scriptures bear record that it was the kingdom set up by our Lord 1900 years ago, while He lived here on the earth.
Missionaries of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints:
We would disagree. Daniel stated that the kingdom “…shall not be left to other people…”. Matthew 21:43 states that Christ said, “…the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” The Kingdom Christ organized was left and given to another people. Continuing on in our proclamation of modern-day prophets, we turn to Matthew 7:15-20. These verses tell us that a true and also a false prophet can be recognized “…by their fruits…”. The fruits of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are many. We have the Book of Mormon, an inspired book of scripture that serves as a second witness for Christ; we have numerous prophecies that have given us guidance; we have the “Word of Wisdom”, a perfect health code given us by the Lord. We promote families, obedience to the laws of the land, being good citizens, and serving others as Christ served. Joseph Smith, through the Lord, introduced good fruit upon good fruit. Matthew 7:18, as it compares prophets to trees, states: “A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit”. The prophet brought forth bushels of good fruit, and thus, by definition, is a good prophet.
Representative of a Christian church:
Using your argument about fruit, I will point out that all Christian churches, and their founders, could make the same argument. For example, the Jehovah’s Witnesses have brought forth a greater understanding of Jehovah and a world-wide Christian organization. The Seventh Day Adventists have brought forth a correct understanding of the scriptures, especially concerning the Sabbath Day, and an understanding of the correct way for man to find his way back to God. The Christian Science movement has given man the true and correct interpretation of the scriptures and healing. The Pentecostal churches present the true baptism of the Holy Spirit, the gifts of the church of Pentecost, the correct interpretation of scripture, as well as missionary fervor.
Missionaries of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints:
Friends, we appreciate the fervor of your devotion to your religions. We are here to establish truth. We have presented the qualifications of a prophet of God. Also note that the name of our religion is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We are founded upon Christ. Notice the names of many of the churches represented here today. Most of the names derive from a certain principle or doctrine rather than from the Lord Himself. Rather than presenting the word of God as revelation today, most of these principles or doctrines were taught and explained by the Savior during His ministry, and various churches have singled out one or two of these teachings upon which to base their focus. The Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ was compete and full, as He established it during His mortal ministry. As the scriptures read, “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that procedeth out of the moth of God.” (Matthew 4:4). As recorded in Matthew 24:23-24, the Savior taught the Scribes and Pharisees in this manner: “Woe unto you, Scribes and Pharisees…for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgement, mercy, and faith; these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone, ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.” Sabbath day observance, healings, the name of God, and other individual aspects of the Gospel are important parts of the Gospel picture, but they must be viewed in proper perspective to the entire Gospel plan. Peter’s words are timely here: “No prophecy of the scriptures is of any private interpretation, for the prophecy came not by the will of man, but holy men of God spake as they were moved upon by the Holy Ghost.” (2 Peter 1:20-21) In that same chapter Peter explains why he has the power to interpret the scriptures, that being that he had seen a vision and heard the voice of the Father. The church of Christ in our day should be able to make the same claims — revelation, visions of God, hearing the voice of God, inspired prophecy. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints lays claim to all of these communications with God.
Representative of a Christian church:
You earlier stated the claim that Joseph Smith was a prophet because his prophecies were fulfilled. I would call you attention to a ‘prophecy’ in your Doctrine and Covenants that was NOT fulfilled. Doctrine and Covenants section 111 makes the following claims: 1) The Lord has treasure available for the Saints in Salem, Massachusetts. 2) Meet and associate with the prominent leaders in Salem and the treasure will be given to you. 3) In due time the Lord would give the city of Salem into the hands of the Saints. 4) The Saints would have power over the city and the gold, silver, and other wealth would be given to the Saints. 5) From this source of wealth the Saints would be given power to pay of the debts of the Church. 6) The Lord instructed them to inquire about the city’s ancient inhabitants because there was more than one source of treasure in the city for them. This prophecy was not fulfilled. The Saints did not receive gold or silver, and learning of the ancient inhabitants did not prosper them in any way. No treasures were obtained. This was apparently a false prophecy!
Missionaries of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints:
Here are the facts of this situation and this prophecy. Joseph Smith and three elders of the Church had gone to Salem for a month of missionary work. The Lord told them that He had treasures for them in this city which would be gathered out for the benefit of Zion. The Lord told them that he had treasure for them in the city which would be gathered out for the benefit of Zion. That treasure consisted of CONVERTS who were baptized into the Church, those whom they brought into the Church during their stay in Salem. They were told to meet prominent people, not for the purpose of gaining worldly wealth, but for the sake of missionary work and to build an influence in the town. The Lord then told them that “in the due time of the Lord” they would have power over the city and its wealth in riches, but notice that the Lord didn’t say when. The Prophet knew that it would be fulfilled when the Saints were to settle and gather once again in Zion (Independence, Missouri) during the Savior’s reign on earth at His Second Coming. He knew, and never meant to convey that it was to be immediately, because there was severe persecution being given at that time to the Baptists and the Quakers, and a mob had only recently destroyed a Catholic convent near Charleston, and that is why he stated through the Lord that it would be in “the Lord’s due time”. The Saints did get their debts paid off in reference to verse 5 of that section, and paid $14,000 soon afterwards for the Kirtland Temple. The Lord then told the Prophet that there was more than one treasure for the Saints in that city, and told him to learn of the city’s history. History is a valuable tool to a missionary, but the revelation was more specifically pointed towards the ancestors of Joseph Smith, who had first settled near Salem upon arriving in America. Therefore, the prophecy in parts has been fulfilled, and the other parts await fulfillment. Just because the Lord makes a prophecy through a prophet does not mean that fulfillment must immediately follow. Isaiah prophesied that Christ would be born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14) and if I were living in the time of the Maccabees around 100 B.C. and I accused Isaiah of being a false prophet because it had not come to pass, it would only be a demonstration of my own misunderstanding and it would not make the prophecy any less valid and exact. Likewise, if I had been living in 1858 and had called Joseph Smith a false prophet because the North and South had not fought nor divided, and that no war had started with the onset in South Carolina and that great blood shed had not come upon the face of the land, it would have been impatience or lack of understanding on my part and would not have made Joseph Smith any less a prophet of the living God. In the same light, because parts of the prophecy regarding Salem, Massachusetts have not been fulfilled yet, it does not make Joseph Smith any less a prophet of God.
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